Comments on: Obligatory and optional tone change rules in Mandarin https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/ A better way of learning Mandarin Sat, 06 Apr 2024 07:41:18 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: Olle Linge https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-118810 Sat, 06 Apr 2024 07:39:46 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-118810 In reply to Jason.

Yes! Wikipedia has a list, which also has even more references, many to papers and articles that might be freely available or available through an institution if you’re affiliate with one! I’ve added Wikipedia to the end-of-article references here, too, so that other people can find it.

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By: Jason https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-118795 Fri, 05 Apr 2024 19:28:43 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-118795 You said,” For more of these, see the reference list at the end.” I checked out the references, and the books are very expensive. Is there any way to find a longer list of these for free?

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By: Olle Linge https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-109704 Wed, 21 Jun 2023 12:38:23 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-109704 In reply to GoPlayerJuggler / 茂耕.

Thank you for the comment! These tone changes are a bit messy and probably depends on many factors, including regional accents, sociolects and so on. I should probably revisit this topic and see if i can bring some clarity to it and add more examples. However, I do think this is mostly overkill to study in detail for most students, as most of these changes happen more or less naturally even for second language learners (at least they do for me and other advanced students I have checked). Still, it’s always good to be aware that this happens, and having more examples is then great, so thanks for sharing!

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By: GoPlayerJuggler / 茂耕 https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-109699 Wed, 21 Jun 2023 07:59:45 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-109699 Hi all,

I returned to this (very good) post after being reminded of it.

I would just like to mention that Wikipedia also has some details about these optional rules for the second and fourth tones. Interestingly, it presents these tone change rules a bit differently. It also gives some more examples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Second_and_fourth_tone_change

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By: Olle Linge https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-71151 Fri, 18 Dec 2020 10:10:08 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-71151 In reply to Kim.

Yes, correct. The basic rule of thumb is to sort by semantic units (words), but these boundaries are ignored as rate of speech increases. Your teacher will probably say wo2 xiang3 liao2jie3, but when speaking at more natural speed, it often is just wo2 xiang2 liao2jie3. The numbers here of course reflect tone changes, but that ought to be obvious. 🙂

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By: Kim https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-71132 Thu, 17 Dec 2020 19:05:25 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-71132 Hi Olle!
Just a short question to make sure I got everything about that 3rd tone change right. It doesn’t matter if the two 3rd tone syllables belong to one word, right? So if I have a 3rd tone-heavy sentence like

我想了解一下。 Wǒ xiǎng liǎojiě yīxià.

with all possible tone changes applied the pronunciation would be

Wo2 xiang2 liao2jie3 yi2xia4?

Because the examples for tone changes are usually words or fixed expressions I had assumed that the tone combinations given above have to appear within one word/expression to trigger a tone change. So when speaking I basically have to think one syllable ahead before using a certain tone?

Thank you for this and the various other informative articles 🙂 And for the replies to comments as well!

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By: John https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-70804 Wed, 09 Dec 2020 06:17:46 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-70804 In reply to Olle Linge.

Thanks Olle,

Linguists also share this confusion, I googled around a bit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_tones_(Middle_Chinese)#Distribution_in_modern_Chinese

“Tones typically have a slight purely-phonetic drop at the end in citation form. It is therefore likely that a tone with a drop of one unit (54, say, or 21) is not distinct from a level tone (a 55 or 22); on the other hand, what one author hears as a significant drop (53 or 31) may be perceived by another as a smaller drop so it is often ambiguous whether a transcription like 54 or 21 is a level or contour tone. Similarly, a slight drop before a rise, such as a 214, may be from the speaker approaching the target tone and so may also not be distinctive (from 14).”

The origin of tones interest me too, they’re not musical notes but the leftover effects on vowels from lost or merged consonants. Now I remember my English teacher in high school once pointed out the vowel in bad is lower and longer than bat, so when the final consonant merges when speaking fast, you can tell them apart.

The above seems like simple trivia, but it changed how I think of tones. You are right, anyone who thinks “tone deafness” is an excuse to not study tones is incorrect.

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By: Olle Linge https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-69027 Fri, 23 Oct 2020 15:37:18 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-69027 In reply to Johnh.

Good question! My advice is to not care about minor differences like that. I teach students that the third tone is a low tone, but that it changes to a rising tone in front of another third tone. I then also say that it optionally has a rise when stressed heavily. That’s it. The rest are fine details I’m not even sure are true. Can you even pronounce a 11 low tone in the middle of a sentence? Probably not, unless the preceding tone ends low. Same for final position. Anyway, just emphasise that it’s low, except before another third tone, and most of the rest follows naturally, in my experience!

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By: Johnh https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-69015 Fri, 23 Oct 2020 11:57:26 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-69015 Hello, the rules, I’ve read for third tone are confusing.
I know that it is a dipping rising in isolation, or becomes rising if before another 3rd.

But according to an IPA guide, in speech the third tone is a low falling (21) if it the first word, if it is sentence medial it is a low flat tone (11), and if it is sentence final it is low with a slight rise (12).

This is hard to remember, and the diacritic for the third tone throws me off when I am trying to read pinyin. Is there a way to practice the above rules? How do I not let the diacritic get in the way? The sight of it makes instinctively think of dipping and rising.

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By: Olle Linge https://www.hackingchinese.com/optional-obligatory-tone-change-rules-mandarin/#comment-58806 Tue, 17 Dec 2019 20:59:41 +0000 http://www.hackingchinese.com/?p=8813#comment-58806 In reply to Lew Proudfoot.

Skritter uses the standardised pronunciation (Mainland) as far as possible (and if it doesn’t you should report it). The standard pronunciation for 要是 is yao4shi0, so that’s what’s in the app. If you’re asking how to know this as a student, you can’t, you have to learn that along with tones in general. There are some patterns, but you can’t predict which words have neutral tones without looking them up. Note that in most cases where there is a neutral tone, it’s often acceptable (sometimes equally acceptable) to pronounce it with full tones.

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